Topic on Talk:Poison and Pain setting/Ignore Resistance PP

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OpenStars (talkcontribs)

I am working on setting this up to become one giant, filterable table for all P/P skills. Let me know if you are opposed to that. Sometimes people care more about some factors - such as AoE, or persistence, or being offered in a particular battle phase, or along with or avoiding being bundled with an attack (that could trigger a counter) - more than others, such as offering both poison and pain together, so this facilitates them choosing whatever they want across all sub-categories of P/P.

This would be DIFFERENT than the Characters filters page (free char, element, attack type, etc.), b/c these filters distinguish b/t the TYPE of P/P offered, so is domain-specific knowledge e.g. not "does char have a preemptive attack somewhere in their skill set?", but "does THIS exact skill have a preemptive attack among one of its offerings (e.g. manifest or with stacks etc.)?"

Anedditor (talkcontribs)

Can a Link to each characters evaluation page be added. Also for longer pages is it possible to add a anchor for reference to a section?

OpenStars (talkcontribs)

First, thank you for your interest in the page!

About the skill rows: MediaWiki Template encoding is rather horrible, and highly constraining. To avoid running yet another Cargo query, the existing one would have to not deliver the character name to the character portrait template, but rather some intermediate brand-new template that would pass it on to that while also saving the character name in a variable...or something. Actually, a better though more risky solution would be to edit the Template:Spoiler Character (which calls the underlying Template:Character icon with text) to add it there somehow - like an icon inside the character portrait area, similar to how Voiddp put weapons indicators inside those at Weapons and like Weapon Manifestation and such. Then, that solution could be re-used (or optionally, not) all across the entire wiki - like on Characters also. On the other hand, messing any of that up would break the character portraits on the entire site as well (even if it were an optional parameter - a SINGLE misplaced extra space character or especially line break will break SO MUCH), and as I have run into time & again, there may be all sorts of uses of things that you would have to research first to make sure do not get broken - some not even on this site, but like as Voiddp pulls data off the wiki, processes it on their machine, and re-uploads it back for optimization purposes. So I would be hesitant to touch such a centrally used Template for that reason.

Also, I do not enjoy reading those Evaluation sections personally, and many senior vets actually avoid them. As you understand how to read through the characters pages, you too will see what I mean. They have...issues, and I wanted to avoid that source of controversy. Plus, all it would add would be a shortcut - but right now anyone can click the portrait or character name and go from there to wherever: Strategy, Lore, Gallery, etc. - so it is a medium amount of work for very little gain even in the best case, compared to other things on the site that need a LOT more attention imho (e.g. making pages for each individual or at least type of grasta, although that will require an administrator).

About anchors to a section: which ones would you like to see? Like guaranteed P&P, non-guaranteed P&P, guaranteed poison, guaranteed pain, non-guaranteed poison, non-guaranteed pain, that kind of thing?

Voiddp (talkcontribs)

when you aren't sure will some changes to some mass used templates mess up something else on site or not, you can always just copy needed template to new name, change new one and use new one for your purposes. Without touching old one.

Bluezero (talkcontribs)

Probably should use a new template based off the Character Skill In Table template. The original template is better for cases where you want to showcase a skill as a point of reference. If you are creating a new design, you should create new template to better fit the design need rather than multipurpose the old one.

Anedditor (talkcontribs)

Thanks for the kind words. This wiki has helped me a lot and it wouldn’t be possible without your and other writing and maintaining the site.

I haven’t touched the themplates as it quite a daunting, but fun, learning curve when new to editing outside of adding text, but as a solution will a cycle skill/text in the template work as an intermediary?

The evaluation section was a thought to make the page less confusing with the different characters, and I thought it may help out to sort out which characters are best in a party settup. Ie. Chiyo AS sets mental focus for mages.

And one anchor for every major headline or paragraph will help a lot.

OpenStars (talkcontribs)

I think part of what Bluezero is saying is that in other pages that make use of the same underlying template such as https://anothereden.wiki/w/Another_Force#Charging_Another_Force you would actually NOT want the link to a character evaluation added, b/c the focus there is more to explain the underlying concept.

But the line between "explanation of this game aspect" vs. "tool to support team-building" is always a bit blurry there - like for that page, should we also add mention of gear (Vow of Invincibility grasta) that also recharges AF, either to the same template or like in a different table perhaps?

Yet for Barrier Piercing, wouldn't the normal usage for that page be more as a guide to help you choose characters that offer it? Yes... but also not nearly as well as the Characters page that has many other filters besides just yes/no having that one feature (and yet that is problematic too: that page does not work well on mobile, you have to know what the icons represent either in advance or else go to great effort for each one individually to find that out from the tooltips, which again on mobile are highly problematic, and you really have to invest some time into learning how to use that tool like "clear status" is not under "Status" but rather "Support", and so on).

Lunatic is another example - that one probably serves more of an organizing/guide function than anything else, like if you had a question "who else has this type of lunatic", then the Character filters page offering merely generic "Lunatic" vs. not would be insufficient (without clicking on every single character one by one to find out), or you could do a cargo query but most people do not know how to do that.

And originally I wanted to make this page more like the Lunatic one - less of a team-building tool and more of a "explain what concepts are involved with this game aspect" guide, like what factors you might want to consider as you use an SDE or stare at the PCD bard and wonder which Tome/Treatise/Codex/Opus to receive. Like Battle Start Pain/Poison is *sooo* good for easy farming:-) (but then for superboss battles or Boss Rush or different stages of manifest fights when new enemies are brought forth, you probably would rather have either a longer-duration option or especially one that you could set as a skill for when you need it, so there is no one "Meta" solution that trumps all others, although some solutions do work better than other solutions so neither are they all of equal value, that *that* is the tension that this page is trying to help navigate). And to meet that need, one thought is that perhaps the fewer characters that are selected as being "noteworthy", the better? (except when newer players do not have any of them, that is not so good, but then it gets weird when you have the likes of e.g. Jade, but not any of the much better gacha even if not Meta ones, like NS Radias can do AoE preemptive application)

But as you are pointing out, perhaps people want to make use of this particular page more as a team-building tool, at least in terms of picking out a single character covering that one role, at which point we could look into other solutions, like adding the entire character filters section up at the top (see how that is also done at Tier Lists, and I was thinking about expanding Tier Lists to include anothereden.game-info.wiki's as well). Or we could take it up a notch even further like add each of these factors as one of the categories to the character roles filter toolbar itself, like a new P/P section with "persistent duration" vs. "fixed-turn", and "AoE application" vs. ST or random, etc. All of the latter though is a ton of effort, and I do not know how appreciated it would be.

So I thought I would start with this page at least, and see where to go from there:-). Anywhere you want to help out, your efforts *are* appreciated! (obviously, try not to break anything:-P) e.g. if you do not feel up to editing Template MediaWiki encoding until you learn more (e.g. here's one help page to get you started, and then another more complex one), I had that other talk discussion point about the word "guaranteed" being confusing to people since application of P/P is not assured by any means, so if Voiddp is okay with that, you could take on the task of going through the 80 skill descriptions and take out that word and replace it with simply "ignore target resistance"? Although I would hold off on that b/c an administrator may be able to do it in a more automated way. Another thought there is to help point people to this page, as I did with the barrier pierce and lunatic cases, see e.g. Starving Wolf where the barrier pierce language has the (1) words, (2) icon, and (3) link to others that also have that function - all of which works together to help both train people how to use that game aspect (e.g. seeing the icon later and recognizing it) as well as facilitate team-building by linking to other characters that also share it, as well as in some cases like this page, also offering further explanation at the top like what gear also can set it, etc. If we wanted to, we could do similarly with setting P/P? (but I do not know if we want to - it seems like a LOT of effort, and especially for unreliable setting of it, not worthwhile, so maybe we only want to do it for some?).

As you can see, all of this is very much a work-in-progress:-).

OpenStars (talkcontribs)

Anedditor, here is a very specific way that you can contribute heavily to this page if you are interested. So far I have only selected a couple ignore resistance pain setters to highlight as notable, but the problem is that if others are not treated in the same manner, they will not be queryable using the filters. (Conversely, marking those that are "notable" can be done in some other manner I suppose - a shading or star or separated section, or some such? anyway it can be done later) So you can help out by making the same entries that I did, for more/all the characters in the older list:

Here is the call for ES Tsukiha:

{{Character Skill In Table|skill=Battle start Pain|largetable=yes|col1display=pain only|col1filter=pain only|col2display=ignore resistance|col2filter=ignore resistance|col3display=fixed: 5 turns|col3filter=fixed-turns|col4display=battle start|col4filter=battle start|col5display=AoE|col5filter=AoE|col6display=none|col6filter=none|requirement=frontline at start of battle|overview={{ActionType box|Battle Start}} inflict {{Status icon|pain ignore|s}} Pain on all enemies (5 turns)}}

and here is the call for Serge's Shining:

{{Character Skill In Table|skill=Shining|largetable=yes|col1display=pain only|col1filter=pain only|col2display=ignore resistance|col2filter=ignore resistance|col3display=varies: fixed 1 turn to persistent|col3filter=persistent|col4display=preemptive|col4filter=preemptive|col5display=AoE|col5filter=AoE|col6display=attack|col6filter=attack|requirement=stack Power Levels for max effect|overview={{ActionType box|Preemptive}} inflict {{Status icon|pain ignore|s}} Pain on all enemies (1 turn to persistent)}}

What you would do is steal the existing row from the older list, and add all those "col1display", "col1filter", etc. columns, so that it fills out the table. The other parameters - skill, requirement, overview, and alttype if present, would all remain the same. Like here is the older one for Serge's Shining:

{{Character Skill In Table|skill=Shining|requirement=None|overview={{ActionType box|Preemptive}} Inflict Pain on all enemies (1 turn), extends +1 additional turn per each Power Level stacked, at 10 becoming {{Tooltip|'''persistent'''|Permanent duration, but can be cleansed|100px}}|alttype={{Skill type icon|None|Slash|size=30px}}{{Skill type icon|FEWW|Slash|size=30px}} }}

(separately, I also made some other modifications - adding the status icon, and actually I did change the requirement parameter value in that case b/c I felt it helped, but the vast majority of the time that may not be necessary)

Even though we will delete these current pages and combine them into one giant one, there is no worry to "lose" any edits, ever, b/c the wiki always stores a full version history and we can always go back and grab your edits to put into that large page.

Does this sound like something that you would like to take on? If not I will do it myself, but I thought I would offer in case it sounds like fun!?:-D

Anedditor (talkcontribs)

Edit: saved the changes instead

Something came up so I didn’t manage to finish the whole page for a full review.

Anedditor (talkcontribs)

I added it to pain (ignore resistance). Let me know what you think.

OpenStars (talkcontribs)

I think that's awesome! There are some "details" ofc, like Bertrand's Overbear as you mentioned in the comments somehow it gets messed up, but overall I think it's wonderful. Please feel free to continue with the others if you like - I started ignore resistance poison only and not ignoring resistance poison and pain (but just a couple of examples each) and if you are handling that, I will concentrate on aspects of integrating them into a single page, which would involve just copying the row lines and some kind of organization as you mentioned with section headers.

OpenStars (talkcontribs)

Ah... I am going to have to go in a different direction. Even with only 15 characters, and <5s page rendering time and <6Mb data, it still says that the template size has been exceeded. So we will have to keep the page split up into these different sections after all. That complicates matters:-(.

OpenStars (talkcontribs)

Anedditor: thank you for bringing it to my attention that the new rows were not working on Safari - I found the source of the issue and fixed it, and it works on my desktop at least, although I do not have a modern machine that can test it on iOS. Does it look better for you now? (make sure to reload the page ofc:-)

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