User talk:OpenStars/Guides/Quality of Life Tips

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Voiddp (talkcontribs)

All of this can live in wiki as personal guide from OpenStars. Reverted to his last edit with all his personal style of writing, smiles, and all that.

Advise: If OpenStars or someone else here wants to do personalized guides based on wiki engine: Its a viable option for them: use your own profile root with your author's name and create page-tree from there. Like as example, Bamiji's tier list. And you then can proceed to use your profile pages as links/guides base in any of reddit posts or anywhere else.

When and IF some of guides will have enough worth and correctness to be integrated/cross-linked into other, more global wiki pages/templates, it will happen. If not, than will just keep existing as personal guide. Like current case.

Hopefully this conflicting case can be closed and resolved on this.

89.245.26.231 (talkcontribs)

Well, I liked the idea with the tabs to the standard pages for grasta and all the other stuff. The reverting to a certain version deleted all this and this makes this page quite limited in its usage.

I don’t know if that was the purpose or just not taken into account.

I liked the content of this page on its last version and maybe the shift to Openstars userspace would have been sufficient for now.

In my eyes it would be nice to take these things into account the next time such a transition shall take place

Voiddp (talkcontribs)

all page versions exist in history of this page. https://anothereden.wiki/index.php?title=User:OpenStars/Guides/Quality_of_Life_Tips&action=history Can keep link on some version for personal use. Or ask Openstars to revert his guide to a version you and him like the most.

I will leave it to OpenStars decision in what form to keep his own guide.

For general use wiki has Grasta page link sidebar and on main, Grasta page has links on grasta type pages inside, the same as each of grasta type pages. You also can create your own page with shorcuts in your profile for your own personal comfortable use.

As for this guide - it isn't wiki index, it isn't another sidebar and wont be looking at how things are going now. There is no present global goal of wiki team to have this page as starting page for any readers. Start from featured pages or game mechanic pages to learn how game works please. Or contact this guide author to keep it updated.

Reply to "Personalized guides format"

Some thoughts on the „some issues“ discussion

10
Summary by Voiddp

resolved by moving this page to personal OS space

89.245.26.249 (talkcontribs)

As someone who just stumbled upon this conversation I say that the way of exchange demotivates contribution of the community and scares everyone away cause mistakes are responded to in this unbelievable harsh way rather than in a friendly motivating way that aims at first understanding each other and comming from there to a better new version.

A community is not an army or any other kind of organization that works on order and strict hierarchy but on joy and free contribution. Especially in a community that has such a nice and welcoming style on reddit which makes it safe and motivating for everyone to contribute. At least for me this discussion is the complete opposite of the AE global reddit community. .

A community is not an army or any other kind of organization that works on order and strict hierarchy but on joy and free contribution. Especially in a community that has such a nice and welcoming style on reddit which makes it safe and motivating for everyone to contribute. At least for me this discussion is the complete opposite of the AE global reddit community.

89.245.26.249 (talkcontribs)

Sorry, last paragraph seemed to get copied

Voiddp (talkcontribs)

not sure why you want to discuss 10 months old topic again.

Overall all i can say about this is that wiki isn't reddit community, and isn't personal blog, and isn't discord community. There are some global encyclopedic standards about presenting info on any wiki(pedia)-sites. And about keeping quality of those standards by editing/proofreading badly presented info with other editors help. And its all doesn't exist for nothing.

Writing novel-chapter worth of badly formatted text about any small thing, and discussing its nuances in few more walls of text - isn't helping anyone at all. Very few readers will want to return to re-read such "personalized guides" when coming to wiki to re-check something specific. Few editors will even want to spend time to proofread that info over and over each edit.

Its either wiki with >encyclopedic-like< >stuctured< compilation of >neutral< >non-biased< facts that anyone can recheck/proofread without having it as a paid job. Or going somewhere else and running a blog/youtube/community channel while personally keeping own quality and getting likes/subs or maybe even money from number of readers who will like that style.

Dreicunan (talkcontribs)

As someone who has spent literal years going back and forth with OpenStars about things, I'm impressed with Vivilerie's restraint!

89.245.26.249 (talkcontribs)

First of all, we are supporting a community of a great game - don’t we? So it’s basically about our free time and hobby and I want to have fun. I am quite sure that I am not the only one… :)

My experience with the participants here is quite limited so I cannot and will not judge about the quality of their wiki contributions or their willingness to edit certain stuff.

Regarding the argument of the big wikipedia: if I compare the English articles, even highly scientific topics with those in other languages, I most times like the English best because it’s written for everyone and not for the scientific cream de la cream. I myself call my quite scientific literal - but in Wikipedia it’s about descriptions that are understandable while you read them and not about highly abstract definitions on which you have to ponder for a long time.

And this is a game - from players for players and not a PhD thesis. So I think it’s worth to make this difference without reducing the level of correctness of information. From a games wiki I want information about the game in a way that I can easily understand them and in a way that might entertain me (which is not mandatory but if some pages are written that way I will not mind) cause I am in my „fun time“ and play on and not need to ponder for hours to understand it. It seems that certain Asian AE Wikis have more details in that direction and I feel like that’s some of the main critics that one can read on Reddit.

So what I am talking here about as well and mainly - and that’s merely the discussion I stumbled about - it’s not the topic and the content but it’s the way people interact with each other. Everyone should give his/her best to be as accurate as possible but a game and the contribution to a fan based wiki belongs to the „fun part“ of life and not to the „serious as death“ part of life. So we should make this part of life easy for all and not fight each other as there is already too much war and other shit in this world - especially since 2022.

And let’s remember what this game is about:

it’s about a group of young people who want to keep their world alive and Aldo the main character is the one who has for all and everyone love and patience so that everyone feels content to just show and develop his or her most human side - maybe we can maintain exactly this spirit while enhancing the wiki as well.

That spirit makes this game so special to me and I am quite sure to many of us.

Voiddp (talkcontribs)

Its all start to look like just some more OS-like empty talks to waste others time, that could have been done elsewere and without me. Want to write something in wiki, do it on content pages, while expecting it to be proofread later by someone else. Want to ask how, or found some error you can't fix yourself, use talk pages. Same common sense rules for everyone as usual.

Here is not a social network or disscusion hub, socializing can be done where its usually done. So I am personally off this talk page from now.

89.245.26.246 (talkcontribs)

Well, my input is not about socializing, it’s just about the way of interacting with each other and that I assume a game and a fan based knowledge base is about having or providing a good time for content creators and readers.

I have and I will try to contribute and hope that it’s accepted or if I accidentally provided misinformation someone just corrects it on the fly as I do the same if I see this somewhere.

I just try to be in that marvelous spirit of the game.

Vivilerie (talkcontribs)

I'll just point out that every time before you click Save when making an edit, there's a warning which says

Please note that all contributions to Another Eden Wiki are considered to be released under the Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike (see Another Eden Wiki:Copyrights for details). If you do not want your writing to be edited mercilessly and redistributed at will, then do not submit it here.

This warning was back on the old wiki too iirc, and I believe it's part of the standard mediawiki template. Of course, it's not meant to discourage anyone (it's just there as a template, and I don't think anyone really notices it). But just fair warning that nothing on wiki is gospel, even what I or anyone else writes in it.

I'm also getting attacked on reddit now for things that I have never done, so I'm not sure what is this "nice and welcoming" or "safe and motivating" culture on subreddit you speak of. And I think many others can attest to having been targeted on the subreddit without any precedent.

But if you're not involved in that, all I can say is, "welcome to the wiki", and point you to How to help Wiki if you are not already aware.

89.245.26.246 (talkcontribs)

Hello Vivelerie,

At first thanks for your welcome here and pointing me to the „wiki how to“. I read that and if I edit I try my best to inherit those guidelines. But I am not perfect yet and this will get better over time.

I hope the edits are only about correcting mistakes and not changing the style of the contributor as long as it is not toxic.

I am just a lurker on Reddit and as I don’t know who you are there ( no need to disclose if you don’t want to, I understand if someone wants to keep privacy) so I can’t say either this or that way. My impression is that the community on Reddit is in its majority as I stated above. The originator of this page seems to have a very special personality which might be a bit consuming from time to time. Anyhow my feeling is that the person is full of love for the game.

I really hope that once you people come to an agreement how to work together in a way that’s good for all sides.

Greets, the „dynamic ip“ guy

ClosedSkies (talkcontribs)

Hello Sir 89.245.26.246, I am a new player who's just begun this game! May I ask why did you provide a link to the roadmap and other pages when it is already available in the sidebar? Are new players so clueless that your page can be considered a 'quality of life' for them? I find this rather upsetting as this page is misleading and advice such as this: Don't expect a single team to do everything for you. If such exists (and occasionally it does), it is extremely hard to get (especially for F2P), and may not last for long as Power Creep continues ever onwards and enemy difficulty rises to match is completely contradictory, and there is no need for a 'free weapons and armor' section as this is already covered by the equipment list (All of them are free except the Daybreak weapons and we can see what weapons need grind). Please reconsider the overall quality of your content as you're creating redundant pages and you're hurting the quality and reputation of the wiki with your contribution instead of helping it.

Signed, Just a passing wiki user

Summary by Voiddp

resolved by moving this page to personal OS space

Anedditor (talkcontribs)

Hi

I saw the message about this page being a candidate for deletion and it seems that the page has changed from being an introduction guide about QoL to become an index guide to other in debt relevant pages, which more or less serve as an lesser extension to other Information that already exists within in the relevant pages or in the roadmap navigation. To make an comparison of what I mean, like the how to help wiki, the Quality of Life Tips are a way to get tips about where to start in QoL and how to do so before having a know how about or can navigate the game. I don’t have the time being to be editing, but as a suggestion since the page has a lot of potential, can the page exist with a guideline about it being starting QoL with further references to other pages on the wiki? As well also use less strict rules about character recommendations?

Summary by OpenStars

Thank you for your feedback.

Since you've cut off all future replies, all I can say is that I wish we could have worked out our differences more politely. You made some good points. Others were demonstrably factually incorrect, as I pointed out and you agreed, while others I seem to have misunderstood you on initially, but if you won't tell me what you meant then all I can do is try & guess as I move forward without you? Hopefully we can meet more in the middle next time. BTW not agreeing with you instantly and 100% isn't the same as disagreeing, and what does truth have to fear from honest inquiry? Anyway, you helped, in your own way, and I appreciate that much at least.

Vivilerie (talkcontribs)

I acknowledge it's still WIP, but even if well-meaning, even in it's current state there's a number of issues that really shouldn't be there. And especially if you're going to post on reddit that you did a thing, you really should be resolving these issues before you start propagating these misinfo. But to be fair, I think this page has its uses once you correct the problems.

Can you make sure that (1) your assertions are qualified, (2) you're not implying things you don't intend to be implying, (3) cut down on your hyperbole.

Page name: minor issue, but most of the things here are guides or strategies, some more useful for end-game rather than early-game, and some actually necessary rather than simply qol. You probably should clearly delineate your scope for this page as well as narrow it, and I mean by a lot.

"On this wiki, we cover more in-depth content relevant to later in the game" -- who's proscribing that so-called beginner content should not be on the wiki? Are the sidequest pages which have solutions to the slightly more complicated early quests not relevant to early game?

"This guide hopefully has elements useful to both min/maxers and casuals who just want to have fun!" -- you've omitted grasta (such as Cup of Invincibility, MP Consumption-, AGAD attack grastas), strawboy, animation times on attacks, etc.

Dungeon running: is Joker's "XXXXXXXXL under certain conditions" something you really want to be claiming?

Kid: "many players go to extreme lengths to allow her to do this before the enemies all die" -- evidence? Evidence doesn't have to be here, but afaik it's not something people do, and "extreme lengths" is not something we should be encouraging people to be doing either.

There's other issues even in the parts that I have read, but this post is too long already.

Go proofread your text. Thanks.

OpenStars (talkcontribs)

This comment is only somewhat helpful. Do you want to take a crack at it before I announce it? I'm not saying it's your responsibility, only offering.

The chief reason for its' existence is dungeon running/farming efficiency, which is most definitely QoL. Many of us may argue that it's necessary, but somehow that's a point of contention so...it is what it is. Unique skills too - like if Kid's stealing were necessary, then why isn't it mentioned at https://anothereden.wiki/w/Kid/Strategy/Ratings? (And Jet Tactician isn't the only way to win battles.) MP reduction also isn't necessary, b/c in part you can use MP restore techniques, yet it's there in relation to the dungeon running. Enemy encounters too, and Free stuff, etc. - you don't NEED any of that to win the Main Story, hence QoL.

The only thing that is absolutely, definitely not QoL is Battle order gimmicking. That may be a fair critique. I mentioned it b/c of its relation to Tsubame's mob-farming QoL, and e.g. Noahxis could add it to his too, though it is tangential, and yet not covered anywhere else I could find to link it? (except obviously https://anothereden.wiki/w/Battle_Mechanics, which I see now has migrated significantly downwards by adding new sections in-between so needs a link to it directly within that section, if the section even remains here) To be honest, I did think to eventually move it elsewhere, once I had a better handle on what people desired to use this page for and what else they wanted - i.e., where else can it go where it would match better, and then a link here can go to there? Like, are we putting more guide content on the wiki now? In any case, it's a fairly small section so I wasn't too worried.

Who to pick next also relates b/c of how many noobs want to pick a QoL to start their game with, seeing as how running the various dungeons now takes so many months of time before they can begin to start on end-game content. You *can* skip such a character, but do you *want* to? Hence QoL.

Then that got into zones: with grastas coming out now - and more in the future? - should players still be advised to spend their SDEs chasing these, as opposed to characters like Jet Tactician that offers other ways to win? That completely aside, what knowledge would enable noobs to make their own choices? One being even to use a zone vs. not, which for fights like the Large White Bug, and the Cradle System Encounter, can actually harm rather than aid the fight. So yes, zones and mandatory end-game strategies overlap, but my focus was not to completely exclude end-game components and yet rather make mention of those aspects that lie within the QoL sphere, even as they extend tendrils forward towards the end-game.

And as for lowering enemy damage to zero, if you can do it as soon as completing Main Story chapter 25, is it really "end-game"?

All that said, yes, the scope is still somewhat fluid, though I saw value in throwing it all together to at least get this started, and then it can be partitioned as makes sense. As we are doing now, that being a far easier task than creating something when starting from nothing.

"more in-depth content relevant to later in the game" -> the sentence immediately proceeding it specifically talks about "coloration of quest markers", which finally the Roadmap is now starting to add, and "battle tips" like how to set up a rotation, and "pictorial guides". e.g., you and I know what this icon means: https://anaden-yakata.jp/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/buff_ele2.png - yet I've never once seen it on this wiki. Have I missed it somewhere? As that same sentence started, "Most extreme game basics are covered by the in-game tutorial...", yet *we do not have it here*. It's not as much of a "value judgement" as just stating the facts. Noobs can go back into the game and read the Manual, which I mentioned how to access that, or they can visit the JP sites, but again, if it's *here*, then I must have missed it? (hence why I stated that it wasn't here) Also, I can find a Lower_pwr, Lower_int, and a Increase SPD (https://anothereden.wiki/w/File:Increase_spd.png) icon (using the Special:NewFiles search page, even setting the date back to January 1, 2015), but I've never once seen a Lower_spd one. A lot of those *extreme basics* are just hit or miss on this site, for whatever reason (actually it makes sense since this is all a fan-made work, and it's in the game so vets weren't as excited to add basic tutorials for it, especially with those already existing on Anaden -> but again, I'm not here to pass a value judgement so much as to direct users to where they can go to get what they need.)

Cup of Invincibility -> oh yeah, kudos, you're absolutely right, that should have been added.

Hardy AS is mentioned as being one of the worst QoL solutions b/c of animation time. I've not seen precision numbers on what those are, nor measured myself, so tended to focus less on that, although indeed that is one of the things that makes Tsubame AS so great, is how fast she is. Or Violet Lancer to enable others to be even faster, e.g. I give Kid a Falcon grasta and her Z-Steal is *really* fast, and kills most things it touches in the early game even including VH Otherlands. But that's something that relates to this being a WIP, that can be improved by people who do have that data, or perhaps are willing to go and measure it themselves. Sadly I don't have many of these chars myself - esp. Flammelapis, and I am still working on Noahxis - so that's not something that would happen prior to announcing it, if I'm literally the only one working on that.

I note that Melody's strategy page says that she can do a 3000% attack, "owing to her Mental Focus buff". I do kinda agree though that it might be nice to constrain these things, and separate out the innate mod %, vs. the effects of secondary buffing (like Violet's 600-720% modifier is different b/c it is the mod% itself being altered by the crit), but apparently that's not the only convention being used on the wiki. e.g., if you needed someone else there anyway, like Rosetta AS for Status Immunity (so Melody's damage is less crucially important than other factors), then you might not always be using Melody's own lower-performing Mental Focus? Although in Joker's case, it seems to make more sense than there, b/c you may only use his Slash technique whenever it makes sense to do so: that skill starts off as 100% (x mod), rising to 150% at max HP, then being doubled again with 1 More. That's 300% (still x mod), which according to https://anothereden.wiki/w/Damage_Formula#Skill_Multiplier, a 300% AoE Type Physical skill would be... 300-160%=140% more than a normal 160% "XL". And since "L" is 140% while "XL" is 160%, thus X => +20%, hence 140%/20% equates to adding 7 Xs. Adding 7 more Xs to XL results in "XXXXXXXXL" (and it's *still* x mod). It's nontraditional I grant you, but on a page meant more for noobs, the idea is to represent just how large this is, to help ease transition into knowing what e.g. "300% x mod" means, which is a number that lacks context, especially when it equates to (extremely) roughly 480% of what his basic attack would offer (then times two again, when hitting against weakness, yet that's a separate matter, while the 300% is more of a "normal" 300%, since it applies to non-weak enemies too, so long as a weak one is present in the set of enemies at the time of the skill use). But not yet having fully grasped "elemental vs. non-elemental" attacks yet, it's a way to suggest that "you can use Joker as your QoL solution if you want, at the start of the game". I also note that the "Passive" tab of the characters is always hidden by default, when first visiting character pages, and yet the game trains people, as they poke around in the UI in the early parts of the story, that passives are basically irrelevant for 4-star older characters like Pom, so it's very easy to miss just how useful Joker can be, with his extremely important passives, who along with Morgana are basically the first (earliest-encountered) in the game that matter. But there too, whether we say "XXXXXXXXL" or "480% of his basic attack under most conditions", or even just "300% x mod", that gets back to this being a WIP. What would be "best"? I don't know, yet so long as XXXXXXXXL is *valid*...then what's wrong with using that? Here again, my goal was to get this project kickstarted, not to be the absolute total authority on it, so if we can find something better... then lets do that instead perhaps have *both* it *and* 300% x mod? Or maybe it's easier to just say less precisely something along the lines of a "double attack".

This answer is getting long, but you asked a lot of points, and I wanted to answer them on... so continuing onwards:

Here are survey results of how many people go to extreme lengths to use Kid's stealing: https://www.reddit.com/r/AnotherEdenGlobal/comments/y5ta0b/how_important_is_qol_to_you_especially_kid/. To summarize: of the 311 respondents, 99 (31.8%) abstained from voting, while 32 (10.3%) indicated "Ain't nobody got time for that, I live entirely for superboss fights" (so should these be excluded as veterans who no longer need these materials? or are these people with their eyes on a prize?). The majority choice, after abstaining, was 92 (29.6%) indicating choosing "Highest priority: I go to extremes to get it", virtually tied with that 88 (28.3%) indicated "Meh, whatever, I could take it or leave it". In short, it could be half and half, or less (or more?), but whatever the case, the fraction of people who said that they go to extremes to steal regularly is quite high - not negligible by any means. Which makes sense, as the amount of git and Attack Frags alone to upgrade all the necessary grastas is quite high, and some people prefer not to use Macros/Autoclickers but rather to take the game as it comes, and want to be efficient about getting the most out of each dungeon run. I also do this personally myself - it's quite fun to juggle all the various factors, and e.g. get something more out of 20 mob battles in Otherlands than just the tiniest chance of seeing an alarmed monster. So wording aside, it is *very much* "something people do". Even if you don't, and that's perfectly fine too.

On that point, as with all others, how can we not so much offer firm advice, yet enable people to make their own choices as to what they want? Kid's Strategy blurb not mentioning that she can steal leaves a gap on the wiki, where once again this very basic info is not on our site (except on her page, buried among thousands of other skills, from hundreds of characters). "who's proscribing that so-called beginner content should not be on the wiki" -> I don't know, I suppose we all are, but her stealing is a perfect example. I don't agree that not acknowledging the fact that she can steal (on the wiki tier list that people keep being pointed to whenever they ask for team-building advice) is a good thing, which granted is irrelevant to boss fights but is VERY relevant for early- to middle-game QoL - i.e., optional choices that someone *could* make, if they so chose, to enhance enjoyment of this wonderful game, that has so very many ways to play it that people can enjoy:-). Hence the page, even if it's not perfect yet:-).

Vivilerie (talkcontribs)

I took a crack at the other two pages you made. I don't want to touch this one because I'll definitely end up rewriting the whole thing (and deleting most of it) given the number of problems, and I've got better things to do. So someone else can proofread the thing.

Efficient dungeon running is fine, that's respectable as a page on its own. But you really ought to make a note at the top of the page that farming gets less and less important, and there's more and more options the further you progress in the game. Cut out Jet Tact, Alma, etc, that has nothing to do with farming. The rest of the stuff, actually put in some effort into linking your points.

On Joker: cut the idiosyncratic terminology. Your attempt at giving context will just confuse people. Just say 300% aoe mod against weak at full hp, and 100% against nonweak at non full hp, and Flammelapis has a 3000% turn 1 no setup AoE. If people want to bother with mods, set them straight early. Better than manually typing out 142 and a half X's.

On Kid: that's an issue with how you phrased your poll. It was two extremes and an indifferent. Whoever's reading this page isn't going to recognise the context (like me). Cut the phrasing.

I think your main issue is that you want to say something that is not wrong, but you always go about the wrong way to say it, and it ends up doing more harm than good.

OpenStars (talkcontribs)

It is difficult from your phrasing for me to puzzle out what you are intending to say. At first I thought your #(1) meant "incorrect statements", as in giving "unqualified advice", especially since you asked for evidence that people use Kid to steal things, and seemed to focus several times on factual things, such as omissions. But now that you mentioned that the factual content "is not wrong", I'm starting to think that you meant instead statements that need qualifiers placed in front of them, to help explain them - like the point about QoL being less relevant as you progress forward in the story. But you did not say which statements, leaving me to have to guess both (a) what you meant, and at the same time (b) where you meant it to apply. Then you continued with (2) unintended implications -> but here too, what concepts might be implied that I did not seem to intend? Kid *is* useful for stealing, and Joker's Slash *is* useful for an early game mob farmer? Then finally (3) hyperbole, meaning "exaggerated statements or claims not meant to be taken literally" - sort of like I don't think you mean that 100% of my statements "always go about the wrong way to say it", *that* is hyperbole (as is "142 and a half X's", and so on). But e.g. with Kid, nearly 100 players stating that they use her stealing a lot, issues of wording aside, should be enough to reject the null hypothesis that "it's not something people do" -> people *do* use it, so this is *not* (1) an incorrect statement, nor (2) an unintended implication, nor (3) hyperbole - since people *do* use it, some going to *extremes* even to make it happen (e.g. I mentioned for myself the specific example of Otherlands, where hopefully such an extreme solution makes more sense, given the particulars of how that type of grinding works, although in fact I use it for most dungeons, especially for the first week when I first farm it extensively, and add stealing to the set of rewards that I can glean from that, thus making it more efficient; whether I need it or not is irrelevant, as it adds a further challenge to what would otherwise be a trivial team-building exercise). Anyway, here too I am unsure which statements you thought were hyperbole - can you point to one?

That said, you brought up some excellent points, like I assumed it was obvious that QoL was mainly for the early-game, since a veteran would already know that -> nevertheless it's a good point that will enhance this page, to help someone make choices by knowing what aspects are short- vs. long-term. If nothing else, you highlighted some of the "pain points" that I can try to go over with more intense scrutiny, to try and guess what your POV might have been. So it *is* helpful...but it would have been a lot more so if you had been more clear in explaining yourself. Which I note is precisely what you are asking of me too...indeed that is always the goal of communication, yet it is hard, I know!:-P

  1. 1 organization -> I responded with my thoughts about intersectionality vs. overlap, but didn't really see any response to this other than that I should "fix it". You are correct that this is a loose agglomeration of things that vaguely tie in to QoL. So? They have headers at least... You also mentioned adding Cup of Invincibility grasta, which I very much like, although wouldn't adding attack grastas further conflate the intersection of matters loosely related to QoL with things that are mandatory for end-game strategies? I can't tell if you want me to add more to the page or take things away, since you seem to imply that I should somehow do both at the same time, on precisely the same topics (mob farming)?
  1. 2 Kid -> okay, fine, let's change that. The word "many" can mean 5 or more, or "a large number of", people (unlike "most" or "all" or "always"), so I *did* intend to imply that, but we can dial the emotive language back a bit, without losing anything, and thereby make it less annoying for a wider audience to read. Thank you.
  1. 3 Joker's Slash -> what I'd love to do is just say that his 1 More doubles his attack, but the underlying fundamental issue there is that 150% lies exactly halfway between L and XL, so what language conveys that? "L and a half" seems misleading, since it could be taken to imply half again more (140+140/2=210). Also, even "300% x mod" could be argued against, since the singular skill by itself does not do that. Also, vs. weak the damage doubles still further yet again, so does that become "600% x mod" in that case? No b/c that's a separate issue. And speaking of, as you know but I'm just covering several of the possible/likely misunderstandings, it's not "300%" of what his Sword Slash would do, but rather more like 480%, but again under certain conditions. Basically this is a fundamental difficulty that this wiki has had since the very beginning of the game. But in any case, discussing this issue with you is giving me ideas so I think I can come up with something that we'll agree on: e.g. it "powers up", *and then* it gets repeated a second time (against all enemies whenever even one...blah blah). Nobody has argued against me saying XXXXXXXXL before so I haven't needed to sharpen my illustration before, so thank you for challenging that - that kind of detailed feedback is something I can work with!:-D

HARM is an emotive, very expressive word, and it definitely caught my attention!! But since you paired it with "always" it does lose a lot of its power, e.g. I am 100% certain that VL's mob-farming QoL "Battle Start passive skill lowers the MP consumption of all party members -100% (1 turn)" is not doing any harm, and I am 99.99999% certain that continuing on with "providing the ultimate variety in whoever you want to bring along and whatever skills you want them to use, to do...whatever" does not either. Probably you meant the issue about making a note at the top of the page that farming gets less important (which btw I agree we should do)...and yet, that was mentioned 3 paragraphs prior to that point, so I really had to work to connect those two together, with the end result that I still am not certain that I correctly understand what you intended.

Can I ask you to proofread your comments first before sending? Well, in any case, I *am* glad that this page is being made better, as a result of us talking about it, so on that much at least, I want to thank you!:-) You are showing love to this community, by sharing what you care about, and mannerisms aside, critiquing this page that is intended to be helpful to people - thus we *absolutely* do not want to lead them astray - is definitely something we can agree is a good work!:-)

Vivilerie (talkcontribs)

I won't try and argue with you any further because from what I've seen of you on the reddit, it's a waste of my time. Go fix the problems you acknowledged and hopefully the other problems on the page as well. If I see you again making a post on reddit that you did a thing, I hope that this page won't still be full of misguided or misleading info. You can reply if you want, I won't be responding any further. Cheers.

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